The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

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Autocrat
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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Autocrat » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:01 pm

Suzthulhu wrote:Agreed on all points. Firearms is opening the door to problems which the operators will then have to further monitor and regulate. They don't belong in the setting, period.
Then I have one further proposal.

At the behest of my benefactors, I propose raising me one or, dare I say, two ranks and I personally shall monitor the issue. I will create the new office of the Grand High Artificer from which I will monitor or regulate the issues of science and technology.

The tagline "doesn't belong in this setting", I shall see it struck down with righteous vindication for such a biased and staunch view has no place in the glorious realm of FFRP.

To say that firearms will become this new issue that would distract moderators is like suggesting the rafters are still an issue. That Gwyn, the sultry barmaid. . bless her soul wherever she may be, would kidnapped by the next new villain of the week in the channel (for those who don't know or forgotten, in 2000-2002 period, her character was a barmaid that always seemed to get kidnapped or attacked by very new player that people were exasperated). Or that we'll be overrun by vampires!

I assure you, you compatriots, that such issues are that of the past. We are in a new era! Let it happen.

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Oblivioncalls » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:18 pm

I get all the arguments against some of these changes but don't completely understand. Sure, you're focusing on a formula that has worked in the past, but they are based on situations that are far less likely to occur in this day and age. Sure, there's some players that refuse to grow up, but an unwillingness to change gives a sense of distrust in players, either current, returning, or just brand spanking new. The playerbase from what I have seen is filled with 90% responsible adults, who may have sinned in the past, but the arguments make it seem like you're expecting them to sin again without giving them a chance to redeem themselves.

If nothing else, I think that the changes ought to be given a trial run to see if players can be trusted with the new responsibilities. It's a brand new day for BDI, why are you going to close the door before the sunshine can get in?
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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Nymphetamine » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:37 pm

Realistically, if such a thing could be said in a fantasy setting, I don't think guns belong in BDI, personally. If you consider the logistics for a moment, it's not something that makes a good deal of sense to have developed in a world where magic can do anything. The need to compartmentalize combustion to something the size of a handgun, to fling a bit of metal at rapid speeds in a minor explosion doesn't seem to me like it's something that inhabitants of the setting would need to develop. What can a gun accomplish that a spell cannot? Absolutely nothing. There is no necessity that would spark and bring on the development of a firearm, in my opinion.

Even if you aren't a mage in BDI, you can acquire spells and use them to the same effect. Go to a mage, commission a multiple use fire spell bound into a talisman or necklace or something. Gesture or point at your target, and the same basic function a gun is required for is not handled by magic. A gun's design, and even its point and pull design is a necessity for function. It's not a careless or unplanned design, it's there to do something specifically and has been engineered to that mind.

What mind is going to develop a gun when he can already go and buy talisman or a spell or some such from a local enchanter, that does the exact same thing without all of that pesky engineering? Personally, I just don't feel the necessity is there that would spark the development of a gun. If we were lower magic, maybe? If non-mages couldn't use magic, maybe. But the fact of the matter is, the way the setting is right now, neither of these things are true.

"Logically" in BDI, they just don't make sense because there has been no need to be filled by guns that have not already been filled by magic.

I dislike these arguments that "well, it's a change, and we need change!" are the only reasons to move to push for guns. We need change, yes, but is the policy against firearms really preventing that change? Have the lack of firearms caused or contributed to the state of decay that we had been experiencing in the channel prior to this point? The answer is -no-. The inclusion of firearms isn't going to change or alter the problems that BDI has faced. Refusing to implement firearms isn't going to make or break the channel, either. So I'd prefer if that argument just stop being used altogether, because in the end, it's not an effective one. The problems in BDI that resulted in decay, and firearms are not related.

You can cite that the over protectiveness on the parts of the ops in the past has stifled growth, and it's true, it has. But in this matter? I don't think it's really the focal, rallying point against the over protectiveness of the past. The point is, the issue of firearms and their inclusion or continued banned is not what's going to make or break the channel's revival and upswing. Change, for the sake of change, isn't healthy or reliable, and I refuse to buy into this argument that "we need change, no matter what it is or how good it is".

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Selestia » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:53 pm

I have a dislike of firearms in a medieval fantasy setting, whether it be a high or low-magic world. It's a door I'd rather not open. You can't regulate it, you can't really enforce it either. And who's going to play out the whole loading, packing the black powder, etc? By the time you get the flint out to shoot me, I have run you through with a sword. Early guns were used from afar on battlefields, not carried around town for self-defense. So the entire idea of having them is rather moot and pointless.

Airships in the setting? Again, who is going to regulate that? You can't. You can't tell someone, "Sorry, you can't have an airship but they can." That takes the FF out of the FFRP. (And you could argue that saying no to firearms/steampunk does the same, but we ARE a medieval-based FFRP.)

You get ass-hattery any which way you look at it, that's true, but there's something about saying, "Hey, let's put guns up against a mage/dragon/fairy" that makes me cringe. They don't go together (at least in my head they don't.)

So. Yes. My two cents. NO.
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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Autocrat » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:55 pm

I see what you're saying Nymph, but that assumption is based on the idea that every single nation on this is planet operates magic fundamentally the same. And while it has from time to time caused complications, the nature of free form and our own wishes have created an environment to accommodate many different 'systems' of magic.

I remember a player whose back story and country required mages to have incantations, something like "I beckon the will of fire to piss in your cheerios" (he did not actually say that; I am taking liberties). Another character's, I guess, setting required tattoos to use magic. All of this was welcomed and we suspended disbelief to accept that certain areas have different approaches and limits. That how magic operated wasn't a constant, or at least we looked the other way.

So why can't there be an island, a continent, or even another planet (hey, if Reshalian boy can have whole dimensions. .) where a situation arose that a combustible reaction was found and put to use?


And, hey. If there are anti-magic handcuffs (which I do believe the guards have), what's to stop people from having anti-magic armor or sigils? We could be d-bags and say they can't have that but why? We shouldn't have to come up with some half-assed excuse or handwave (for that or guns). So if there are means to deny magic, it is also plausible that people would develop means around it.

Honestly, what harm could allowing firearms do? Like I said, we've allowed cannons in the past. We've had good guy vampires, liches, and dark elves or drows or whatever the hell you want to call it. As I've said several times before, our founders were a black dragon and a fallen angel. We've had furries roll in. Extra dimensional beings. Demons. Angels. I made an all powerful warlock that no one ever bats more than an eyelash at and the worst that ever comes of it is eye rolling or aggravation (the characters) because he talks too much. Drache has Repeatedly been attacked by swarms of demons and undead, sometimes apparently without rhyme or reason.

How are firearms or steam power going to destroy the setting? Why shouldn't they be allowed in? I see no reason why we can't try and make it work beyond petty bias.

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Autocrat » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:10 pm

Selestia wrote:I have a dislike of firearms in a medieval fantasy setting, whether it be a high or low-magic world. It's a door I'd rather not open. You can't regulate it, you can't really enforce it either. And who's going to play out the whole loading, packing the black powder, etc? By the time you get the flint out to shoot me, I have run you through with a sword. Early guns were used from afar on battlefields, not carried around town for self-defense. So the entire idea of having them is rather moot and pointless.

Airships in the setting? Again, who is going to regulate that? You can't. You can't tell someone, "Sorry, you can't have an airship but they can." That takes the FF out of the FFRP. (And you could argue that saying no to firearms/steampunk does the same, but we ARE a medieval-based FFRP.)

You get ass-hattery any which way you look at it, that's true, but there's something about saying, "Hey, let's put guns up against a mage/dragon/fairy" that makes me cringe. They don't go together (at least in my head they don't.)

So. Yes. My two cents. NO.
Who regulates the awesome might of infinite magic and powers cosmic? I know for a fact that there are a number of obnoxiously powerful mages, not just my character, who operate in the inn.

How do we regulate all the vampires and demons or liches that happen to saunter on in?

My point is this - how are firearms unique? Especially when it's just as easy to make a crossbow fully automatic and equip it with obnoxiously magical arrows or for a player to get Legolas on us with a bow. It rarely happens.

The regulation issue is, well, in my opinion a non issue.

And to me, of course guns go together with a fantasy setting. Seeing medieval knights fight along side gunners or samurai wielding their arquebuses is a sight to see.

And to say it doesn't make sense is weird to me because we're dealing with a setting that has repeatedly had children in rafters who turn out to be gods or dragons. Things far more ridiculous and nonsensical are allowed to happen. Like, Cyvyl Ryghts Actyvysts. We may've derided these people but we allowed players to stand up for undead characters, even though it was against the law and the undead characters in question were doing morally questionable things. I still remember the time like six people, unrelated to each other, showed up at the same time with ninjas. And another time a player was walking around with Damascus steal, even though there is technically no Damascus in the setting.

And there's one other thing we're forgetting. It's a free form role play channel and however annoying something might get, we are able to pick and choose who we play with and what interactions we have. I've watched so many times a monster burst through the inn's door, roaring and dripping blood and threatening to rape the first virgin it sees and players elected to ignore it or act not surprised and unconcerned. Can we not choose to ignore the character walking in with a hand cannon, something that in all likelihood would be rare anyway (especially if my suggestions are taken)?

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Autocrat » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:25 pm

Furthermore.

If magic is truly the answer to everything, does Drache have magical lamps? Floating towers, perhaps? An island, even! Some sort of magical transport for the everyman other than horses or horses and carriages?

It appears as if magic hasn't progressed, either. Or at least it hasn't filled every niche. Has the city grown at all? Decayed, perhaps? Change in architecture or culture? Magic COULD solve everything, COULD replace everything, but it hasn't and it doesn't have to if we don't want or need it to. It's all for the players to tool around with.

And it's not simply an issue of firearms or steam, but advancement as a whole. You may not like the argument for change, but then how about the argument that the setting is stale? Or that only a minority pay any more attention to it than a cursory glance and brief nod. Maybe we need to incorporate new or radical elements to it, maybe even make a plot point of it for players to get involved. Surely there are some out there who might be interested in a cultural and technological revolution.

These fears that icky firearms will somehow ruin the whole setting, to me, are just as ridiculous as the assertion that the "change" argument appears to its critics. I've said so many times before that this channel has faced so many ridiculous and absurd things and the setting has remained. . 'safe'.

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by Pigasus » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:26 pm

Here's what you do.

Gunpowder only blows up when there's several pounds of it packed together. Enough for a cannon, too much for a gun.

Problem solved.

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by MunInFull » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:45 am

This thread is very, very long. I've only just skimmed it, but I think I get the gist. And since I don't really have a dog in this hunt anymore, here's my .02.

1) Individual firearms: no, they kill the medieval-fantasy feel, and someone is going to abuse it, always. Or want more.

2) Crew-serviced firearms, like cannon: yes, since they've existed in the setting since forever and are essential to the maritime part of the setting. However, they should be heavy, inaccurate, prone to explode etc. Basically equal to catapults, ballistas etc.

3) Airships: yes, but only if they've got a) a solid setting basis (I.E. they're using Xiunlan tech) and b) the ops trust the folks who want them, and c) they're not gratuitous. And by "not gratuitous," I mean rare. If a player wants an airship, s/he should have a good backtory, a reputation for balanced play, and the airship should be well-balanced. Ex: no napalm cannons.

As someone who's played a char with an airship, I'd like to see them remain novel/rare and put to the forefront only when there's a plot/storyline afoot. Ex: "The adventurers/heroes need to land on a tower, but how will they do it?!" As opposed to having a floating fuckhutch/having a char whose raison d'etre is "I have an airship, baby, wanna ball on it?"

So let there be cannon and let there be airships, but don't let them be lame. That's all.

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Re: The issue of firearms, airships, and steam punk.

Post by MunInFull » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:51 am

And ditto Igor's gunpowder argument.

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