For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by dragonwielder » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:18 am

I'm just having a problem here. Either way, vampires are dying. Hell, it's persuading vampires to die for you. What's wrong with this?
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by Oblivioncalls » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:21 am

I have stated my reasons, and my vote stands as nay.
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by TheOtherOne » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:29 am

The proposed law is procedural, dealing with the proper manner the guards deal with vampires who willingly turn themselves in, providing an incentive and a pathway for them to end their life in a more dignified manner if they still have the spark of sanity, and in so doing aid the greater Transdarianan goal of purging the scourge of vampirism.

It in no way purports to subvert or undermine the laws of Transdariana or grant vampires the right to live, let alone any lesser rights under Transdarianan law, which, in summary, provides that any citizen may hunt the undead without fear of prosecution as long as the rights of the living are not infringed in the process.

I do not seek to change your mind, but I will clear the air on the nature of this proposed law.

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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by Oblivioncalls » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:56 am

If you insist that this farce go on, I will offer a counter proposal:

I. If a vampire turns itself in to the Civic Guard, the Guard has the right to detain or slay the vampire as they see fit in accordance with Edict 171 of the Laws of Transdariania.
*Ia. If they detain the vampire, they will inform the Bathiretil so they can take the vampire into custody for questioning, interrogation, and eventual extermination.
*Ib. If a member of the Bathiretil is present, they will take the vampire into custody for questioning, interrogation, and eventual extermination.
*Ic. If the Civic Guard slays the vampire, they will follow the procedure outlined in III.

II. If the vampire cooperates and gives suitable information, they may be granted a quick and/or painless death at the Balthire's discretion.

III. In accordance with procedure, the vampire will be beheaded, staked, and left to burn to ash in the sun. There will be no burial rites.

IV. The family of the departed should be granted the right to the vampire's belongings. If there is no family to claim the belongings, the monies and property are forfeit and become property of the Duchy.

If my counter-proposal seems to be the way things are currently, I will remind you that the Civic Guard answers to the Lord Commander, whom answers to the Duchy. Not the City Council. If you wish to propose procedure with regards to the Civic Guard, I suggest you take that up with the Sithire.
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by dragonwielder » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:30 am

May at the balthire's discretion? That's not going to work. No vampire will turn themselves in knowing that they could still be tortured anyways.

So I propose this. The vampire may be confirmed a quick and clean death if they show who turned them. If not, then they are left to the balthire's discretion on whether or not their death will be quick and clean.

As for burial rights, I knew they were not going to get bodies. But the family does at least deserve the ashes. Provided it's after the ashes are confirmed not to regenerate or something wacky like that.
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by TheOtherOne » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:32 am

I am not interested in legislating torture fetishes, Councilman Silverbow.

Nay to all of these ludicrous proposals and I seek closure on my amended proposal.

As for your suggestion, Vorfon Baroque, circumstances may be such that they cannot give a name to those who turned them, such as if they were ambushed. I remind you of the recent situation that lead to these proposals.

All information should be accepted. No reason to withhold a quick death.
Last edited by TheOtherOne on Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by Oblivioncalls » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:35 am

Then my vote stands at nay with the reminder this council has no authority to propose procedure to the Civic Guard.
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by Suzthulhu » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:01 am

Natalia's vote still stands. What incentive is it for a vampire to come forth if they're just going to die? They're going to die anyway, and these proposals merely prolong the inevitable. I have seen first hand what vampires can do, even fledglings, and I will not abide by any proposal that grants them any mercy. Nay.
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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by TheOtherOne » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:33 am

It is quite disappointing, Tespin Natalia, that you changed your own reasoning for refusing the proposals after I amended the proposals to meet your dissent on exile, which was what was first suggested as a reason for the original Nay vote. I request that you give your full reasoning next time so the Council's time is not wasted on pointless amendments.

But to answer your question, I have provided a number of reasons for incentive, for one not facing torture, that they'd receive a burial, and that their property rights prior to undeath would be respected in inheritance - so that a father and owner of the house, for instance, would turn himself in rather than put his family out on the streets. A vampire not yet taken fully by the curse in their mind might do this, and anyone with the slightest knowledge of vampires would know that the vampire's curse does not always immediately cloud one's senses.

As it stands, vampires have no reason not to spread, and in fact, knowing what they do, have every incentive to spread their curse far and wide, as the more of them there are, the more targets for torture and hunts that there will be - taking attention away from them. My proposal intended to use one who was turned against their will, or who has enough sense to have accepted that their nature is evil, to end their life and to provide information on others. We could have very well found enough information to wipe out entire dens that could now remain free to operate.

The idea that the Guards or Bathretil can find all fledgling vampires immediately and before they can cause any damage is, of course, on its face impossible, simply as a matter of reality being what it is - the Guards are only mortal and if such was the case, they would be there to prevent the turning to begin with.

The idea that a vampire on the streets will somehow last for a shorter time than one that turns themselves in, is also on its face absurd. Lathrelk has shown that vampires have festered in Transdariana before, and whoever turned the young lady a few days ago also has enough resources to get a carriage and dump a body in the middle of Market District at night.

It seems that many in this City see no incentive in providing an avenue for victims of vampires to achieve closure and in turn assist with stopping further turning, because once the citizen is turned, they are no longer a citizen and requires no pity. It is a disappointing mentality that endangers our citizens - and is not borne out by our law.

I would like to remind this Council that the act of turning a vampire falls under Murder, Vampiric Feeding, and also Creation of Undead. These are three crimes *against the Citizens* - and the first and last one carry a possible Death sentence. Those who are turned against their will are victims - victims which are recognised by our criminal law, and I feel that this is being forgotten, to the detriment of our very citizens we are supposed to be defending, and to the benefit of those we are supposed to be stopping.

This vote is therefore hung and goes to casting vote.

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Re: For City Council Vote 1.VIII.489

Post by Oblivioncalls » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:54 pm

I will remind the council yet again, that we have no authority to enforce procedure on the Civic Guard, it is under the Lord Commander's purview, whom answers to the Sithire. This entire proposal has been a waste of time because it will have no effect on anything.
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